gEnDeR rOlEs Reviews
4 reviews have given an average rating of 3.8 out of 5 Stars
America is not a patriarchy. Assault and rape are awful, but we do not live in a patriarchy.
I agree with the premises of the idea of 'stop having women be sexualized objects', fully agree on that. They are people. Living beings that have emotions, thoughts, reasons and a life of their own just like everyone else.
Though there are two concepts that I understand what you are getting at, yet I feel they are misrepresented or misunderstood (unless I'm reading it wrong), but the idea of women's sports getting paid less, usually that is based on ratings and skill-set as seen most dominantly between the NBA and WNBA.
For the 'patriarchy' idea. Well, I mean, was it really the 'patriarchy' that made or contributed to the way it is? Personally, I don't think so. I believe cultural values that have passed overtime has resulted in such things to happen like such cause and effect relations. Once abortion was legalized along with the idea of divorce being 'okay', rates of rape and sexual assault, unprotected sex and of course, abortion rose to higher levels than they were before such things were acceptable.
Patriarchy isn't just about men, but how society is worked as a whole with everyone. Same with Matriarchy and all other forms. There can never be true dominance until one group crumbles to the ground and it can't be true dominance if there are separate roles as to which each side possesses that can't be put on the same scale.
Patriarchy isn't the same as cultural values (in terms of separating the two concepts because most people seem to jumble them into the same idea). Patriarchy is based on set of mostly (keyword: mostly) characterful beliefs that are actually expected of all sides to co-exist in peace and well being for all by teaching from The Bible whereas cultural values is the idea what is deemed 'acceptable' and what 'isn't' from society itself.
Can the two overlap? Of course. How do we value which side is in the wrong or right? Who really knows?
Sorry I wrote an essay, but I just wanted to put my two cents in on this topic because I find this pretty intriguing and have been in discussions about this before with many people.
I appreciate it when boldness like this comes to terms with reality. Gives a moment for us to actually think and reflect on what we do and why.
Kiraa I appreciate your response! I always enjoy long reviews and this is something I care deeply about, so I’m always down for a conversation about it. With that being said, here’s my super long response:
I first want to say that, as a man, there are things you do not know and will never understand of me as a woman- and vice versa, of course. Along with that, I wrote this months ago after having a conversation with my best friend where she cried to me because she felt so desperately misunderstood as a woman. I then submitted this, in part, so that men could see a glimpse into how it feels to be a woman. Not to argue, but to listen.
With the issue of womens vs mens sports: That’s exactly what I’m talking about- why are women's sports seen as having less of a skill set? Isn’t that revealing of a deep rooted issue? It’s also shown through baseball vs softball, golf, soccer, tennis, and every other sport. So much so that, in baseball & softball alone, men make over four MILLION dollars a year while women in softball make a mere six thousand. That’s a problem. https://online.adelphi.edu/articles/male-female-sports-salary/
For the patriarchy comments: Looking at the history of America, the majority of people in power (Government, CEO’s, etc) are men- white men, to be specific. When men create the system of America that we have, and only men for a very very long time, then of course the laws and processes in place will benefit the men with no thought about- and often, at the expense of- women. Not to say this is even always on purpose, but that is what happens when a certain demographic doesn’t have a say in how things run. That demographic’s perspective is left out, leaving only what’s left (men) to create laws and the laws will, naturally, be used to benefit men.
I first want to say that, as a man, there are things you do not know and will never understand of me as a woman- and vice versa, of course. Along with that, I wrote this months ago after having a conversation with my best friend where she cried to me because she felt so desperately misunderstood as a woman. I then submitted this, in part, so that men could see a glimpse into how it feels to be a woman. Not to argue, but to listen.
With the issue of womens vs mens sports: That’s exactly what I’m talking about- why are women's sports seen as having less of a skill set? Isn’t that revealing of a deep rooted issue? It’s also shown through baseball vs softball, golf, soccer, tennis, and every other sport. So much so that, in baseball & softball alone, men make over four MILLION dollars a year while women in softball make a mere six thousand. That’s a problem. https://online.adelphi.edu/articles/male-female-sports-salary/
For the patriarchy comments: Looking at the history of America, the majority of people in power (Government, CEO’s, etc) are men- white men, to be specific. When men create the system of America that we have, and only men for a very very long time, then of course the laws and processes in place will benefit the men with no thought about- and often, at the expense of- women. Not to say this is even always on purpose, but that is what happens when a certain demographic doesn’t have a say in how things run. That demographic’s perspective is left out, leaving only what’s left (men) to create laws and the laws will, naturally, be used to benefit men.
Author -
Kiraa While you can have a different opinion on the effects of this/ what you think it looks like, you straight up can’t deny the fact that men have always been in power therefore America is a patriarchy. That’s how a patriarchy works. America was founded by men to benefit men and still remains that way today.
I’m not sure about the semantics of cultural value vs patriarchy- kind of lost me there, are you saying you agree that culturally women are sexualized but that’s separate from our patriarchy?- I do agree that, from my understandning of your concept of a cultural value, sex sells is an example of a cultural value that America has. It’s shown in songs, advertisement, clothes, hook-up culture, it’s in everything. And of course that plays into/ effects the way we see women (& how women see themselves/each other) and everything else. But I argue that isn’t separate from the patriarchy, that’s because of the patriarchy. I’m not saying that men are naturally deviant evil creatures motivated only be sex, but that culturally, men are conditioned (through media, peers, porn, etc) to value money and sex at any cost and often that is what then happens. That’s an issue that results from the patriarchy. So before you say women also play into this, I want to add that I believe that’s also a result of the patriarchy. Think of it like this: a lot of kids who are bullied become bullies later on in school at an attempt to reclaim the power they felt was stolen to them. It’s very common that this also happens with people who are oversexualized. There’s a lot of psychology that goes into this, but when someone is assaulted as a child (as almost every single woman I know was), oftentimes that person will try to regain control by oversexualizing themselves in a way of basically saying “you don’t tell me when to take my clothes off, I do” to regain that power back-
I’m not sure about the semantics of cultural value vs patriarchy- kind of lost me there, are you saying you agree that culturally women are sexualized but that’s separate from our patriarchy?- I do agree that, from my understandning of your concept of a cultural value, sex sells is an example of a cultural value that America has. It’s shown in songs, advertisement, clothes, hook-up culture, it’s in everything. And of course that plays into/ effects the way we see women (& how women see themselves/each other) and everything else. But I argue that isn’t separate from the patriarchy, that’s because of the patriarchy. I’m not saying that men are naturally deviant evil creatures motivated only be sex, but that culturally, men are conditioned (through media, peers, porn, etc) to value money and sex at any cost and often that is what then happens. That’s an issue that results from the patriarchy. So before you say women also play into this, I want to add that I believe that’s also a result of the patriarchy. Think of it like this: a lot of kids who are bullied become bullies later on in school at an attempt to reclaim the power they felt was stolen to them. It’s very common that this also happens with people who are oversexualized. There’s a lot of psychology that goes into this, but when someone is assaulted as a child (as almost every single woman I know was), oftentimes that person will try to regain control by oversexualizing themselves in a way of basically saying “you don’t tell me when to take my clothes off, I do” to regain that power back-
Author -
Kiraa - not because they want to do those things, but because it’s been stolen from them, they’re traumatized, and they’re trying to gain a piece of themselves back. Although this never works, we see it all the time- and often subconsciously. That is still the patriarchy! That is still men in control, trying to get what they want at the expense of women. So the patriarchy is about men- it’s all about men getting and maintaining that control.
Now don’t hear me wrong, I love men. I value men. Men are needed, men are great. I’m not saying anything opposite of that. What I’m saying is that men won’t see things that women will see, just as women won’t see things that men will see- that’s a part of our creation. The key difference in the system of America is that men are overwhelmingly more represented than women when it comes to how things work. That’s patriarchy.
About the increase in cases after divorce was more normalized: I argue that it’s not that sexual assault increased, but that women finally had enough physical safety to get away from their abusers to talk about it. Sexual assault has always been something that happens to women all the time, but, only within the last few decades, women have gained a bit more safety in political freedom to talk about it.
But lets pretend that isn’t true (even though I know it is). Even if that weren’t the case, why would cases of sexual assault increase after divorce is more normalized? Doesn’t that itself reveal a deeper rooted issue?
Here’s the thing tho- it shouldn’t be considered “bold” of me to say what I think- men do that all the time. But for me to raise my voice is me not being polite, nice, or small- all the things the patriarchy needs of women for it to continue as the system in place. This is an issue that is so deep and intricate and developed that even the way we talk and sit and cross our legs is policed - whether or not we’re a man or woman.
Now don’t hear me wrong, I love men. I value men. Men are needed, men are great. I’m not saying anything opposite of that. What I’m saying is that men won’t see things that women will see, just as women won’t see things that men will see- that’s a part of our creation. The key difference in the system of America is that men are overwhelmingly more represented than women when it comes to how things work. That’s patriarchy.
About the increase in cases after divorce was more normalized: I argue that it’s not that sexual assault increased, but that women finally had enough physical safety to get away from their abusers to talk about it. Sexual assault has always been something that happens to women all the time, but, only within the last few decades, women have gained a bit more safety in political freedom to talk about it.
But lets pretend that isn’t true (even though I know it is). Even if that weren’t the case, why would cases of sexual assault increase after divorce is more normalized? Doesn’t that itself reveal a deeper rooted issue?
Here’s the thing tho- it shouldn’t be considered “bold” of me to say what I think- men do that all the time. But for me to raise my voice is me not being polite, nice, or small- all the things the patriarchy needs of women for it to continue as the system in place. This is an issue that is so deep and intricate and developed that even the way we talk and sit and cross our legs is policed - whether or not we’re a man or woman.
Author -
Kiraa That’s the thing, too- when it comes down to it, men do not benefit from the patriarchy either. Policing men to act a certain way, look a certain way, or work in a certain field to be considered a “man” is just as detrimental as the sexualization of women- but men still think, because of the patriarchy, they need to make these decisions to- again- be considered manly and to be accepted by other men.
Lastly, I wanna add that I don’t believe American culture is rooted in Biblical concepts at ALL. And I recognize that, in the fallen world, we will never be able to create and live in a perfect system because the only perfect one is in Heaven. However, that doesn’t dismiss the realities of how screwed up our system is and definitely does not excuse people for not doing anything about it. I know that God is just upset as I am- even more so- and everyone else about all human rights issues.
Sorry for the literal book of a response, I just care deeply about this and always enjoy conversations about it & sharing perspectives- especially with your interesting mind
Lastly, I wanna add that I don’t believe American culture is rooted in Biblical concepts at ALL. And I recognize that, in the fallen world, we will never be able to create and live in a perfect system because the only perfect one is in Heaven. However, that doesn’t dismiss the realities of how screwed up our system is and definitely does not excuse people for not doing anything about it. I know that God is just upset as I am- even more so- and everyone else about all human rights issues.
Sorry for the literal book of a response, I just care deeply about this and always enjoy conversations about it & sharing perspectives- especially with your interesting mind
Author -
AaronTheRocker That is a lot lol and I appreciate that. You have heart in this and you point out valid reasons.
I'll try to respond to the big main reasons of what you brought up.
To understand what each side feels and how it is represented, I agree. To talk about it so that we have a better understanding of each other is how to have a functioning society.
For the discussion you had with your best friend, I think it's important to understand she is one person. I'm not trying to devalue her emotions and thoughts because I'm sure many women across the globe feel and sense life in such a way, but there is another side to it. Society is filled with two groups of people, the "Haves" and the "Have Nots" for every aspect of everything whether it would be skin color, wealth, emotions, family, food, everything. Those two groups will always be in constant battle, a tug-of-war, to keep and/or gain power. That is human nature. It is also human nature to want peace thought too. So their is conflict their also and it is the matter of balancing it out so that both sides can be happy, but that will never happen because of consistent changes.
I'll try to respond to the big main reasons of what you brought up.
To understand what each side feels and how it is represented, I agree. To talk about it so that we have a better understanding of each other is how to have a functioning society.
For the discussion you had with your best friend, I think it's important to understand she is one person. I'm not trying to devalue her emotions and thoughts because I'm sure many women across the globe feel and sense life in such a way, but there is another side to it. Society is filled with two groups of people, the "Haves" and the "Have Nots" for every aspect of everything whether it would be skin color, wealth, emotions, family, food, everything. Those two groups will always be in constant battle, a tug-of-war, to keep and/or gain power. That is human nature. It is also human nature to want peace thought too. So their is conflict their also and it is the matter of balancing it out so that both sides can be happy, but that will never happen because of consistent changes.
Reviewer -
AaronTheRocker For the women's and men's 'pay gap', that is a misrepresented idea. To say 'equal pay' is to say 'everything is equal' which in most cases is false. Everything has a value and will have differing values if it is not the same. Sports are a business and people go into that business, whether men or women, for profits. Over the past year, the NBA has gained net profits near 7.9 billion dollars and the WNBA has actually lost profits about 12 million dollars every year for the past two decades never turning a profit. The NBA actually pays for the WNBA to stay alive because of low viewership and sponsors. Also on the idea of business, there are contracts and they play a big role. the U.S Women's soccer league filed a lawsuit for 'unequal pay', that fell flat once their contracts revealed they had very fine prestigious benefits they had compared to men such as health care, housing and many more things.
For the idea of skill-set, that is exactly how it is. Based on natural biology, men are more likely going to be physically fitter, stronger and more aggressive than women as seen through-out most, if not all, sports. I'm not trying to shit on women in sports because I'm a big fan of soccer, tennis, track and field, figure skating, but there is a big difference in how they play the game compared to men and again, the concept of 'equality' (as brought up with 'equal pay' doesn't mean 'everything is equal'. There is and always will be difference whether it'd be pay, audience, ratings, sponsors, anything really.
For the idea of skill-set, that is exactly how it is. Based on natural biology, men are more likely going to be physically fitter, stronger and more aggressive than women as seen through-out most, if not all, sports. I'm not trying to shit on women in sports because I'm a big fan of soccer, tennis, track and field, figure skating, but there is a big difference in how they play the game compared to men and again, the concept of 'equality' (as brought up with 'equal pay' doesn't mean 'everything is equal'. There is and always will be difference whether it'd be pay, audience, ratings, sponsors, anything really.
Reviewer -
AaronTheRocker For patriarchy, America is actually becoming less and less patriarchal as it is now becoming more 'equalarchal' (I know it's not a word, but for the sake of describing American society, I'll write it). Women are gaining more attention in the workplace now. From workplace sexual assault/harassment, equal pay act, benefits and coverage, gaining traction in CEO employment. Same for politics and cultural values. Women are now becoming a force in politics having a significant portion of them represent their local area, state and federal districts/the whole nation.
Men have also helped women particularly seen in the health field with birth control and hygiene products. So now we are seeing a tide turn in the affects of 'men for men' to now 'all for all' (in the sense of their being a patriarchal society).
To comment on your earlier post saying patriarchy doesn't help men either. I agree. Now I have to ask, how is something else compared to a patriarchal society is going to be better if apparently 'men have always ruled'? Every system, every person, everything is going to have a flaw. What seems to work good or look good in theory doesn't always end up that way nor should someone expect it to be perfect or better.
Men have also helped women particularly seen in the health field with birth control and hygiene products. So now we are seeing a tide turn in the affects of 'men for men' to now 'all for all' (in the sense of their being a patriarchal society).
To comment on your earlier post saying patriarchy doesn't help men either. I agree. Now I have to ask, how is something else compared to a patriarchal society is going to be better if apparently 'men have always ruled'? Every system, every person, everything is going to have a flaw. What seems to work good or look good in theory doesn't always end up that way nor should someone expect it to be perfect or better.
Reviewer -
AaronTheRocker For women being sex-objects and the question you brought up of me saying that cultural values and patriarchy are different, but you put forth the idea that they can overlap (to the idea of women being sexualized). Yeah, I brought that up in the original post, the concept of the two overlapping. So I would understand.
For the sexual assault cases once divorce was normalized, what you brought up is valid, but look at how many people (specifically women) have taken it to their advantage also? We are now starting to live in a society where it's sort of a stalemate between men and women on such topic because of the back-and-forth on it with "Believe All Women" and "Not All Men" ("Not All Men" being the original meaning when it wasn't posted by feminists as a meme). It's gonna be hard to come from this because there is a lot of smoke and mirrors.
For how you responded to my comment of "bold", I meant the idea of putting forth a strong idea in world we live in because I truly do appreciate it when people do such because it means they are wiling to put themselves up front having their values on the line in a case they may be proven logical or illogical. Though, let's say I did mean "bold" as for the idea I meant it to you as a women feeling appreciated (as that's how I read it). Should I have not said that? Should I just have called it 'weak' or 'illogical'? Wasn't the purpose of destroying a patriarchy by empowering and encouraging women? Not trying be rude, this is just my lawyer side coming out questioning such to have a clear understanding of what you are saying and representing.
For the sexual assault cases once divorce was normalized, what you brought up is valid, but look at how many people (specifically women) have taken it to their advantage also? We are now starting to live in a society where it's sort of a stalemate between men and women on such topic because of the back-and-forth on it with "Believe All Women" and "Not All Men" ("Not All Men" being the original meaning when it wasn't posted by feminists as a meme). It's gonna be hard to come from this because there is a lot of smoke and mirrors.
For how you responded to my comment of "bold", I meant the idea of putting forth a strong idea in world we live in because I truly do appreciate it when people do such because it means they are wiling to put themselves up front having their values on the line in a case they may be proven logical or illogical. Though, let's say I did mean "bold" as for the idea I meant it to you as a women feeling appreciated (as that's how I read it). Should I have not said that? Should I just have called it 'weak' or 'illogical'? Wasn't the purpose of destroying a patriarchy by empowering and encouraging women? Not trying be rude, this is just my lawyer side coming out questioning such to have a clear understanding of what you are saying and representing.
Reviewer -
AaronTheRocker For America not being rooted in Biblical ideology, I mean, it was before (though not perfect because we human), but yeah, it's starting to fall apart. It's not that we don't want to achieve it, but I believe it's more of an idea we are to scared to come with terms of reality that we are afraid of being wrong even for slightest of things.
Reviewer -
Kiraa Aaron that’s exactly what I’m talking about with the pay gap- I understand they are based on value, so why is it that women’s value is considered less than in each of these categories?
And even in vocations where women make up the majority of that field, men are still considered more valuable in those vocations (ie chefs, nurses, school administration) and are paid more for it! A man and a woman in the same vocation with the exact same background and skill set, the man will be paid more and will get the promotion much faster.
It seems like you agree America is a patriarchy. We both agree that a patriarchy doesn’t benefit men, and I argue it definitely doesn’t benefit women either (can’t seem to tell if you agree with that even tho you do with men), so either way obviously getting rid of the patriarchy is a benefit. I’m not asking for perfection, I’m asking to be looked at like a human. I said and stand by the statement that systems won’t be perfect, but they do not have to be oppressive either! And even if someone believes they do, that won’t stop the oppressed from standing up and saying “hey dude uh don’t fuckin do that” yu know what I mean.
The fact that you have to say “women are gaining more attention in the workplace” reveals that there is and has been an issue with women in the workplace. Just because women are now legally allowed to do most jobs does not eliminate the truth that women are still discriminated illegally within those jobs. Did you know there are more CEO’s named Jeff in America than there are women CEO’s? Isn’t that ridiculous? Also what do you mean by men have helped women with birth control and hygiene products? That really threw me off.
So it sounds like you agree there’s a power struggle between men and women? And it sounds like your conclusion is that that will always be the case, so to leave it alone?
And even in vocations where women make up the majority of that field, men are still considered more valuable in those vocations (ie chefs, nurses, school administration) and are paid more for it! A man and a woman in the same vocation with the exact same background and skill set, the man will be paid more and will get the promotion much faster.
It seems like you agree America is a patriarchy. We both agree that a patriarchy doesn’t benefit men, and I argue it definitely doesn’t benefit women either (can’t seem to tell if you agree with that even tho you do with men), so either way obviously getting rid of the patriarchy is a benefit. I’m not asking for perfection, I’m asking to be looked at like a human. I said and stand by the statement that systems won’t be perfect, but they do not have to be oppressive either! And even if someone believes they do, that won’t stop the oppressed from standing up and saying “hey dude uh don’t fuckin do that” yu know what I mean.
The fact that you have to say “women are gaining more attention in the workplace” reveals that there is and has been an issue with women in the workplace. Just because women are now legally allowed to do most jobs does not eliminate the truth that women are still discriminated illegally within those jobs. Did you know there are more CEO’s named Jeff in America than there are women CEO’s? Isn’t that ridiculous? Also what do you mean by men have helped women with birth control and hygiene products? That really threw me off.
So it sounds like you agree there’s a power struggle between men and women? And it sounds like your conclusion is that that will always be the case, so to leave it alone?
Author -
Kiraa I guess my real question is, although I am grateful for conversation and reviews and enjoy this one, what’s your point? If it’s that womens issues aren’t that big of a deal, then you legit can’t say that as someone who isn’t a woman because obviously you wouldn’t know about womens issues in the same way a woman does- same with a man if I were to claim that. You can only learn those by listening to others. You know what I’m saying?
I also want to say that I will believe a woman over a man when it comes to sexual assault any day. I used to believe feminism was stupid and sexual assault wasn’t really that common because I was clouded by internalized misogyny (thats how deep this stuff goes). I’ve seen cases of sexual assault on both sides and stood by people who were both accused and accusing. And look dude I’m in no way perfect, I believed my ex boyfriend (fiance) to be completely innocent in his charges and was determined to stand by him until the end of his very long prison sentence. Until I realized that the woman was actually telling the truth. But he had me completely convinced for a long time. Considering the number of false rape allegations is 8% (according to the FBI), that’s truly not even related to my submission and to bring it up is dismissive of the issue of sexual assault itself. Even though you may have not been trying to be dismissive, that is dismissive. Also I wanna say that I’m a feminist and I’ve never heard the saying “Believe All Women”- but I do agree that saying “Not All Men” is, again, highly dismissive. It’s become a way for people to scathe themselves out of personal responsibility by saying “oh okay, well I don’t snatch women from alleys so I don’t have to listen/ change anything about my life.”
I also want to say that I will believe a woman over a man when it comes to sexual assault any day. I used to believe feminism was stupid and sexual assault wasn’t really that common because I was clouded by internalized misogyny (thats how deep this stuff goes). I’ve seen cases of sexual assault on both sides and stood by people who were both accused and accusing. And look dude I’m in no way perfect, I believed my ex boyfriend (fiance) to be completely innocent in his charges and was determined to stand by him until the end of his very long prison sentence. Until I realized that the woman was actually telling the truth. But he had me completely convinced for a long time. Considering the number of false rape allegations is 8% (according to the FBI), that’s truly not even related to my submission and to bring it up is dismissive of the issue of sexual assault itself. Even though you may have not been trying to be dismissive, that is dismissive. Also I wanna say that I’m a feminist and I’ve never heard the saying “Believe All Women”- but I do agree that saying “Not All Men” is, again, highly dismissive. It’s become a way for people to scathe themselves out of personal responsibility by saying “oh okay, well I don’t snatch women from alleys so I don’t have to listen/ change anything about my life.”
Author -
Kiraa (It’s also highly ironic because every woman I know has been assaulted but I know less than a handful of convicted men- that’s a problem) This entire thing is a societal issue and each and every one of us have to take a hard look at ourselves to start and unravel the layers of sexism in our society. And while we’re talking about the Bible, let’s talk about the original curse after the fall: Genesis 3:15 states: “And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head and you will strike his heel…” oppression on women dates back to the original curse! Men will abuse their power over women, and women will desire a man to rule over them. It’s real, it happens, and it’s embedded into every part of us- whether we chose to see it or not.
I always appreciate a good skeptic and respect where your coming from when trying to counter things that seem to be “agendas” or whatever you’d like to call them- I think like that, too, so I definitely get where you could be coming from in that. Like I said, I used to think feminism was stupid and annoying and people trying to make up issues. But that was because I myself also had these sexist ideas embeded into me- and I still do, but God is helping me unfold out of that so that I can better treat myself and those I care about. Not to say that some people/media/whatever use real issues for personal gain, of course that happens with everything, but it is still indeed a serious issue.
I always appreciate a good skeptic and respect where your coming from when trying to counter things that seem to be “agendas” or whatever you’d like to call them- I think like that, too, so I definitely get where you could be coming from in that. Like I said, I used to think feminism was stupid and annoying and people trying to make up issues. But that was because I myself also had these sexist ideas embeded into me- and I still do, but God is helping me unfold out of that so that I can better treat myself and those I care about. Not to say that some people/media/whatever use real issues for personal gain, of course that happens with everything, but it is still indeed a serious issue.
Author -
Kiraa oh yeah and for the bold thing- I was pointing out how as a woman we're supposed to be more quiet to make room for the men to be bold (been taught that my entire life) and just how the societal gender stuff affects our every day life/ the way we interact with each other, too. I get where you're coming from for sure in saying how that sounded ironic. Although I do want to add that the point of destroying a patriarchy isn't just to empower/ encourage women- it's for men just as much, it simply shows itself in a different way (as far as I know about being a man in America) through policing of things like "act like a man" and "men don't have emotions" and all those fun things. The flip side of this is that it is still inherently oppressive to women because it assumes that if you cry you're a bitch or a pussy and both of those lovely terms are references to women, either consciously or unconsciously- essentially, the goal is to avoid being feminine in any way so much that you have to become/ take on characteristics of something you aren't to gain approval. Because femininity is just soo awful. Again, this is only my limited insight through conversations I've had/ college courses/ research, but there is so much more to it than that. The point isn't a matriarchy- it's equality.
Author -
AaronTheRocker To answer your direct question of this main idea is that I believe it (being the whole idea of patriarchy and there being a patriarchy) is misconstrued.
Men get paid more and get promoted because men do work more than women (based on hours) and men are more likely to ask for a promotion compared to women.
I agree there has been a patriarchy, but that is starting to change now. I'm not denying the facts that men worked as women stayed at the house and all that other jazz because, well, that is just what the American culture was. That is and has been changing for quite some time. I'm not saying it's neither bad nor good, I'm just pointing out things that are misrepresented (in my perspective of how I read the article).
For the case of hygienic products, you proclaimed the idea of 'men for men' which I have then countered that idea with the use of the hygienic products for women.
Basically to sum up both of our ideas and what we have presented, we are fighting for the same thing, it's just that we have different plans/views on how to see and resolve the issue of societal ways and values.
Men get paid more and get promoted because men do work more than women (based on hours) and men are more likely to ask for a promotion compared to women.
I agree there has been a patriarchy, but that is starting to change now. I'm not denying the facts that men worked as women stayed at the house and all that other jazz because, well, that is just what the American culture was. That is and has been changing for quite some time. I'm not saying it's neither bad nor good, I'm just pointing out things that are misrepresented (in my perspective of how I read the article).
For the case of hygienic products, you proclaimed the idea of 'men for men' which I have then countered that idea with the use of the hygienic products for women.
Basically to sum up both of our ideas and what we have presented, we are fighting for the same thing, it's just that we have different plans/views on how to see and resolve the issue of societal ways and values.
Reviewer -
this is really good, a few grammar mistakes. This is absolutely correct and it is disgusting.
Kiraa very true- thanks for reading
Author -
while i appreciate the boldness you have, you might want to change the audience. it's just a language and subject issue
Kiraa oh thanks for catching that!
Author -
♥ ᵍ๏вℓ𝓲ℕ ♥ of course
Reviewer -
With that being said, I'm interested in what you think a patriarchy is? The matter of whether something is or isn't a patriarchy isn't an opinion, it's a proven fact-
Patriarchy defined: "a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it." 2nd definition: "Patriarchy is a social system in which men hold primary power and predominate in roles of political leadership, moral authority, social privilege and control of property."
I'll put some informative graphs below on the history of America & the gender that has held power- I encourage you to seek out more too, there's plenty of information out there.
Men have always held the power in America and have always made the laws and decided how America is to be run; therefore, a woman's perspective & experience has been left out- that's a patriarchy. Whether the direct fault of the receiver or not (that's a much more complicated conversation), women have been consistently excluded and our voices have been silenced. Men have always held the power, and women haven't had a say in the way America runs. That's a patriarchy. There are other things to have opinions on in my writing above, and I would love to hear/ discuss those, but whether or not America's a patriarchy isn't a question/opinion- it's fact
CEO's by gender: https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=Y63LpUCO&id=DACF3D0848BE5DC7B555456BD09E99DA1A098A09&thid=OIP.Y63LpUCOxU8i_CrUbEnVpwHaDt&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fwww.equilar.com%2fimages%2fblog%2f402%2fblogbody-9-24-ceo-by-gender-600x300.png&cdnurl=https%3a%2f%2fth.bing.com%2fth%2fid%2fR63adcba5408ec54f22fc2ad46c49d5a7%3frik%3dCYoJGtqZntBrRQ%26pid%3dImgRaw&exph=600&expw=1200&q=ceos+by+gender+graph&simid=608041080004499410&ck=43223B38C32316F21472D1E65A27C881&selectedIndex=0&FORM=IRPRST&ajaxhist=0&ajaxserp=0
Also, the government's power is supposed to come FROM the people, roughly half of which are women. If we worked to make government smaller, women WOULD have more of a voice. We all would.
saying that both men and women vote them in puts the blame back on women and says that they're the ones hurting so they need to get themselves out of it. that's stupid! it's not until the people who have the power recognize there's an issue and start to care about what's going on that change can start to happen. I understand that as a man you won't naturally see those struggles. it's the same thing with a woman to a mans struggles. We have to listen each other and come together on stuff like this to make change.
we all know the power of the government does not actually come from the voice of people, but from the exploitation of people, so that comment I won't even expand on.
Women can run for office too, right?
There are so many questions, and chocking it up to "patriarchy" barely scratches the surface.
Multiple other reasons exist as to why there are less women in government today. and every one of them directly leads back to the patriarchy.
A woman who is demanding or assertive is considered too bossy or a bitch & it often limits her progression in professional offices.
Women are more likely to be in poverty than men, regardless of race, thus making it more difficult to run campaigns. Additionally, women are still seen as the main caretakers and expected to be home with families. That's another factor.
Many people gain power in politics through having connections with other politicians. If historically politicians are men (white men to be specific), then women don't have that advantage at all.
There are many, many men who still say women don't belong in politics and literally do say no women allowed, even though on paper it's illegal, it very much happens. and the women who have been involved in politics have been ridiculed much more than the men in politics have.
It's not because women don't want to. It's because we are told we can't and that it isn't realistic or possible. I understand this is something hard for you to wrap your head around. and just because it doesn't make sense to someone who doesn't experience that doesn't make it any less true, that is the reality of women in america.
your statement puts the blame back on women, yet again, and refuses to look at the reality that we live in. Again, like I've shown multiple times, America has been and is a patriarchy. It isn't a question.
A women's voice in government on this is imperative because it creates an additional space where it isn't only one way. Where people who enjoy whatever hobbies they do can enter and their voices are still valued.
as I said in my original writing,
Firstly, we often ignore the fact that men are, on average, more aggressive than women. That leads to assertiveness and ambition that a lot of women don't have, which is one reason why we see men get more promotions or pay raises than men. More men ask for those things, and more men get them.
A lot of people blame that on patriarchy, saying women suppress their ambition, and men hold them back, but there's actual, crystal clear research that shows a temperamental difference between the genders.
Now, when talking about that difference, we often say, "there's more overlap than difference" and that's CORRECT. Men are more similar to women than they are different. BUT. The meaningful differences happen at extremes. If you took a random man and random woman and guessed that the man was more aggressive, you'd be right 60% of the time. That doesn't seem like a lot, but again, the meaningful differences happen at extremes. Not all men are aggressive, but the most aggressive person out of a crowd of 1,000 will ALWAYS be a man.
That's why there are more men in prison, because the aggression it takes to get into prison is almost always seen in men.
So, high government positions are an extreme. You have to be extremely assertive, extremely aggressive, extremely ambitious to get up there. Again, that kind of aggressiveness usually belongs to a man.
Second, we ignore the fact that women as a whole have more power than all the men in government. How? They raise the children that become the adults. No person has had a greater impact on my life than my mother.
PLEASE don't take this as a sexist "women belong in the home", because that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying we do not respect mothers enough or recognize the power they have, or the influence they have on our society every day. America could not exist without mothers, and we forget that.
Likewise, women are not supposed to show anger- ever. under any circumstance. when we do, we're considered bitchy, too much, bossy. THAT'S why women may seem to you as less aggressive and some stupid poll might assume the same. But the reality is that women are constantly told we cannot be aggressive because we don't have a right to say anything or speak up. as a women, I'm here to tell you: we are aggressive, HIGHLY ambitious, and assertive when the scales of the damned patriarchy are sucked out of us (often through intensive therapy).
I do agree there are differences between men and women- but they aren't based on aggression or ambition. God created us to be different for a reason and I do honor that. At the same time, the God that I serve does not set up institutions that oppress others. the God that I serve hears the muffled cries of women all over the world, including America, and ignites a fire in us to create change. just as He does with all oppressive systems.
Obviously stable mothers are important, but that's near irrelevant in a conversation about government. Stable fathers are just as important as stable mothers. So if you're going to say that, the same can be said for the opposite. Men ask for promotions more because they're raised to believe their entitled to those things. Spaces have been created where they can go ask for a promotion and not be taken as a joke.
Of course stable fathers are just as important. I never said otherwise.
Talking about mothers when talking about government is not disconnected. I would argue that family is at the center of any good society.
I've never felt like I'm only allowed to feel anger. In fact, my mother worked her ass off getting my anger issues under control when I was 6 years old or so.
I also don't know any men who feel like they're only able to show anger. Most of my guy friends, my uncles, my dad, my teachers, my coworkers, they're chill. They're nice, respectful people.
Riddle me this. Why don't women complain about women not being involved in LOCAL government? And why, in my entire life of being the son of a man heavily involved in our county government, have there never been women running for positions? You're really going to say it's because men are MAKING them pursue their own goals instead of running for governor? You're going to take away that choice? Invalidate it by saying they were brainwashed into wanting families?
Government is FAR more divided by ideology than sex. Trump wasn't elected because he was a man, he was elected because Hillary Clinton was the more evil of the two. I could care LESS what gender government people are. Fairness means giving everyone the same chance REGARDLESS of sex, which means that if more men are interested, more men will be in government. It doesn't MATTER. Government representatives don't represent their sex, they represent the citizens, all of them!
Again, I don't know how your oppression narrative works in a society where women's votes have the same power as men's. We all elect our officials. We aren't segregated. Women and men work together, generally speaking.
again, you're not hearing what I'm saying. There are unconscious biases that effect this. You're asking a question and I'm giving you an answer. It's just not the one you want to hear. There's nothing I can do about that. Again, you're putting the blame back on women instead of listening to a women explain how the world works and interacts with her.
why is it that it's considered complaining when I talk about an issue that deeply affects me and many other women? as if it's something I'm just bitching about instead of something that's real.
I respect where you're coming from and recognize that much of this is something you have to chose to see, considering it does not apply to you. However, if you're going to keep telling me that my perspective is wrong instead of granting me the same respect, then this isn't a constructive conversation.
I know you didn't say anything about Clinton or Trump, but in a conversation aboit women in high government positions, it makes sense to mention some specific ones, yes?
Unconscious bias. Can it be measured? Can it be changed? Can it even be differentiated from conscious biases?
The reason it seems like complaining (though, to be fair, I never said you were complaining) is that you're claiming to be oppressed, then when people ask who's oppressing you, you say things like "the people in power" and like, yeah, of course they oppress you, they're power hungry, corrupt people. You say "men are holding us back" and yeah, some men hold some women back. A few very bad men, who for some stupid reason, we elected! That's ALL our faults for not educating ourselves and our children. You say "men have been taught to act in a certain way" but then call it irrelevant when I bring up the mothers who DO THE TEACHING nine times out of ten.
You say I can never understand because I'm a man, and you're a woman, but you're only one woman! And I'm only one man! And believe it or not, neither of us understand the world as much as we think we do.
You're telling me my perspective is wrong too, so I don't know why you're upset that I'm doing the same.
Constructive conversations rarely boil down to unconscious bias, because what we're conscious of shapes our worldviews and perceptions WAY more than things we can't measure or understand. I'm big on personal responsibility, and individuality, which means conscious effort to try to be the best person I can, to have blunt but forgiving conversations, and try to see things from multiple viewpoints.
I just don't see how unconscious bias is oppressing women--and when I say that, you blame it on me being a man, with unconscious bias. It's circular logic, and extremely unproductive.